Looking to add more stopping power - Suggestions?


terry_em1

terry_em1

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 12, 2013
Messages
898
Car(s)
EM1 Civic
My EM1 has been running the same setup for the past 4 years, more or less. I upgraded the pads and lines since I came into ownership of the car. Currently I have factory rears, braided lines, EBC Yellowstuff pads, Type R front calipers, and cheap Brembo discs. I haven't messed with the master cylinder or proportioning valve.

The fronts need redoing, so I'm thinking maybe its time to change the lot. The rears I want to swap to EK9 calipers, for the bigger discs, though not necessary. The fronts I'm stuck between Spoon and Porsche Brembos. I've read some threads about DC5 Brembos, but I want to stay with 15" wheels.

Love to hear your 2 cents on this :busy:
 
Alot of mates have got porsche brakes on theirs and said its all good.
Spoon is cool but very expenive

I had wilwoods 4 pots, which was perfect when i was Naturally aspirated, went boost and they were pointless which is why im not ksport 6 pot calipers 304 mm disc

But brake fluid is a major factor when it comes to brake upgrade
 
Massive topic....also the first time i've actually replied to thread on here in 4 years so congrats on getting me interested enough to reply haha. I;ve spent the last 16 years trying different things on my car so hopefully can help.

I'd start with asking whats actually wrong with your current setup? Here's some questions for you....
- Do you not like the pedal feel?
- Do you want decreased stopping distances? (What tyres are you running?)
- Do you want the cool points? (Nothing wrong with that btw!)
- Are you having issues with heat management?
- Whats the useage of the car? Road and track I believe from your build thread but worth confirming!

The MC makes a huge difference in pedal feel, especially if you have a MC stopper (I could feel the bulkhead on my car flexing under hard braking on track days). Get a 1"MC in there asap.

Sticking with the OEM Honda brake sizing has massive advantages, more readily available pads and discs being the main ones. Easier to rebuild, and when you're looking at aftermarket calipers, you have to be wary that they usually dont have dust seals so required rebuilding more often.

Personally heat management is the biggest thing for brakes for me. As Vish has said, brake fluid is a massive factor and a good DOT4 is all you need. I run Motul RBF660 and have never had an issue on boiling brake fluid with loads of track days. On the topic of heat management, I also use the Honed brake ducts - theyre cheap and cheerful and allows you to run a less aggressive pad for the road, whilst maintaining track performance.

Regarding the Porsche calipers, I looked into doing that when I was doing my upgrade. My issue with it was by the time I'd bought the calipers (and rebuilt them), the mounting kit from Honed, good discs and good pads, it was the same price as a Spoon setup. Being a Honda kid the Spoon setup won for me. The Spoon calipers use OEM Honda pad sizes so again, you have loads of options for pads and discs.

I personally dont think the 262 rear upgrade is worth the hassle, as you have to start looking at redrilling discs etc etc.

In terms of what I've tried and the difference it made....

- Daily. OEM 262/drum, bluprint pads/discs/shoes (I was 17!).
- Daily. OEM 282/drum, 1"MC, Ferodo DS2500. Brake pedal feel much improved, better at managing heat, increased stopping power.
- Summer car with occasional track use. OEM 282/242, 4040 prop valve, 1"MC, Ferodo DS2500, MTEC discs. Better heat management for the rear axle, no change in pedal feel. Kept warping discs after a track day.
- Summer car with more track use (3-4 a year). OEM 282/242, 4040 prop valve, 1"MC, Ferodo DS2500, Godspeed discs, Honed brake ducts. Really liked this setup, great all rounder that was allowing me to do 20min track sessions with no problem. Could lock the front axle under heavy braking in the dry so had the braking power.
- Summer car with even more track use (4-6 a year). Spoon 282/242, 4040 prop valve, 1"MC, Ferodo DS2500, Godspeed discs, Honed brake ducts, MC stopper. This is my current setup - wouldn't change it. I've hot lapped the car on this and i've overheated myself before the brakes (Cadwell Park, 30 minute session chasing/swapping with my brother in his E46 M3, 29deg ambient).

Sorry i've started rambling.... but key points are:
- Manage the heat.
- No point having more braking power than whats needed to lock the wheels.
- Cant go overkill with a good DOT4.

Long story short, let me know what your problems and useage is and i'll try to help guide!
 
R1PPU said:
Massive topic....also the first time i've actually replied to thread on here in 4 years so congrats on getting me interested enough to reply haha. I;ve spent the last 16 years trying different things on my car so hopefully can help.

I'd start with asking whats actually wrong with your current setup? Here's some questions for you....
- Do you not like the pedal feel?
- Do you want decreased stopping distances? (What tyres are you running?)
- Do you want the cool points? (Nothing wrong with that btw!)
- Are you having issues with heat management?
- Whats the useage of the car? Road and track I believe from your build thread but worth confirming!

The MC makes a huge difference in pedal feel, especially if you have a MC stopper (I could feel the bulkhead on my car flexing under hard braking on track days). Get a 1"MC in there asap.

Sticking with the OEM Honda brake sizing has massive advantages, more readily available pads and discs being the main ones. Easier to rebuild, and when you're looking at aftermarket calipers, you have to be wary that they usually dont have dust seals so required rebuilding more often.

Personally heat management is the biggest thing for brakes for me. As Vish has said, brake fluid is a massive factor and a good DOT4 is all you need. I run Motul RBF660 and have never had an issue on boiling brake fluid with loads of track days. On the topic of heat management, I also use the Honed brake ducts - theyre cheap and cheerful and allows you to run a less aggressive pad for the road, whilst maintaining track performance.

Regarding the Porsche calipers, I looked into doing that when I was doing my upgrade. My issue with it was by the time I'd bought the calipers (and rebuilt them), the mounting kit from Honed, good discs and good pads, it was the same price as a Spoon setup. Being a Honda kid the Spoon setup won for me. The Spoon calipers use OEM Honda pad sizes so again, you have loads of options for pads and discs.

I personally dont think the 262 rear upgrade is worth the hassle, as you have to start looking at redrilling discs etc etc.

In terms of what I've tried and the difference it made....

- Daily. OEM 262/drum, bluprint pads/discs/shoes (I was 17!).
- Daily. OEM 282/drum, 1"MC, Ferodo DS2500. Brake pedal feel much improved, better at managing heat, increased stopping power.
- Summer car with occasional track use. OEM 282/242, 4040 prop valve, 1"MC, Ferodo DS2500, MTEC discs. Better heat management for the rear axle, no change in pedal feel. Kept warping discs after a track day.
- Summer car with more track use (3-4 a year). OEM 282/242, 4040 prop valve, 1"MC, Ferodo DS2500, Godspeed discs, Honed brake ducts. Really liked this setup, great all rounder that was allowing me to do 20min track sessions with no problem. Could lock the front axle under heavy braking in the dry so had the braking power.
- Summer car with even more track use (4-6 a year). Spoon 282/242, 4040 prop valve, 1"MC, Ferodo DS2500, Godspeed discs, Honed brake ducts, MC stopper. This is my current setup - wouldn't change it. I've hot lapped the car on this and i've overheated myself before the brakes (Cadwell Park, 30 minute session chasing/swapping with my brother in his E46 M3, 29deg ambient).

Sorry i've started rambling.... but key points are:
- Manage the heat.
- No point having more braking power than whats needed to lock the wheels.
- Cant go overkill with a good DOT4.

Long story short, let me know what your problems and useage is and i'll try to help guide!
Click to expand...
I haven't seen your name in years :shocked: Wow, that's a lot of text, but very in depth. I'll try to reply to all of that as best I can.

First of all, my front discs have warped for the second time. First time was really bad where I drove home and the car was shuddering like crazy. I know I've to park in gear with the handbrake off when I'm in the pits. I do 3-4 hot laps at most before I go into the paddock. 3 sessions for the day and I'll chill out until closing time. 2 track days for the year because that's all I can afford to do, without breaking my daily :wtf: Heat management is a factor so.

I'm not confident with the current stopping distance. I'm not a quick driver by any means. When I brake, I try easing into it, so I don't trigger the ABS. It has happened a few times on track and the road.

I'm using Motul RBF 600. Never had the fluid boil over. I did all the 'management' stuff before adding power, as you can see from my build thread.

Regarding some things you said. I've seen mentions where you shouldn't use a master cylinder stopper on an ABS car.
I was having a chat with Vish and he was helping me price up the Brembo option. Yes, as you said it yourself, it'll end up costing as much as the Spoons. The difference being a 294mm disc and non-OEM pads. If I do go for the Spoons, twinblock or monoblock, I'm planning on buying cheap secondhand ones anyway. (At this time currently, there's some monoblocks for less than €300 :wow:) I'll bid on them only if they're insanely cheap because I want to stay 15" :run:

I will look into the ducting. This is the one you're on about? https://honeddevelopments.com/product/honed-product-brake-cooling-air-guide-kit/
 
  • Like
Reactions: rvm
Haha I still lurk! Its a shame the forums have died a bit. I should probably update my thread at some point.

3-4 hot laps really shouldnt be causing 282's to warp to be honest. To me, thats not the correct pad/disc combination and not enough airflow to your brakes. Just going off my experience, I rate the DS2500's over the EBC yellowstuff's as an all rounder pad - they are dusty as hell though. When I changed to a good quality disc (Godspeed brand), that made a huge difference.

If you're triggering ABS that means that you've started to lock a wheel so you're at the limit of grip of your tyres. What tyres are you running out of interest? Before adding more braking power I would look at removing the ABS to be honest. But this all sounds like heat management rather than braking power if im not mistaken.

294mm is a BIG disc. I'd be wary about the setup fitting under 15's if you want to keep your current wheels (forgot to mention that in my last post). Just FYI you will need a spacer even for the Spoon kits. Monoblock uses a 300mm disc so again, be wary of that fitting under your wheels.

Yep thats the kit!
 
R1PPU said:
Haha I still lurk! Its a shame the forums have died a bit. I should probably update my thread at some point.

3-4 hot laps really shouldnt be causing 282's to warp to be honest. To me, thats not the correct pad/disc combination and not enough airflow to your brakes. Just going off my experience, I rate the DS2500's over the EBC yellowstuff's as an all rounder pad - they are dusty as hell though. When I changed to a good quality disc (Godspeed brand), that made a huge difference.

If you're triggering ABS that means that you've started to lock a wheel so you're at the limit of grip of your tyres. What tyres are you running out of interest? Before adding more braking power I would look at removing the ABS to be honest. But this all sounds like heat management rather than braking power if im not mistaken.

294mm is a BIG disc. I'd be wary about the setup fitting under 15's if you want to keep your current wheels (forgot to mention that in my last post). Just FYI you will need a spacer even for the Spoon kits. Monoblock uses a 300mm disc so again, be wary of that fitting under your wheels.

Yep thats the kit!
Click to expand...
Advan AD08RS.

I’m already running 5mm spacers up front, just for aesthetics. I have extended studs as well.
 
Some good points by R1PPU .
I run 282/262 on eg6 with 1" master cylinder and brake stopper. Pads are Ferrodo DS2500 , discs are from a MG zr. Motul RBF 660 brake fluid.
car weights circa 1050kg. I wouldnt change this set up, really sharp pedal feel, do have to be carefull with no abs.
I think its recommended to fit a 40/40 prop valve for this set up, I got one but never fitted it as i was happy with the way it was.
Ive ran this set up on road / track for a long time, no issues . I rebuilt them with oem seals ,slide pins, pistons etc when I orginally purchased like 10 years ago along with a new master cylinder.

The only thing I might try in future is carbon lorraine pads , just to test them out . I dont feel the current set up is lacking.
 
R1PPU said:
Massive topic....also the first time i've actually replied to thread on here in 4 years so congrats on getting me interested enough to reply haha. I;ve spent the last 16 years trying different things on my car so hopefully can help.

I'd start with asking whats actually wrong with your current setup? Here's some questions for you....
- Do you not like the pedal feel?
- Do you want decreased stopping distances? (What tyres are you running?)
- Do you want the cool points? (Nothing wrong with that btw!)
- Are you having issues with heat management?
- Whats the useage of the car? Road and track I believe from your build thread but worth confirming!

The MC makes a huge difference in pedal feel, especially if you have a MC stopper (I could feel the bulkhead on my car flexing under hard braking on track days). Get a 1"MC in there asap.

Sticking with the OEM Honda brake sizing has massive advantages, more readily available pads and discs being the main ones. Easier to rebuild, and when you're looking at aftermarket calipers, you have to be wary that they usually dont have dust seals so required rebuilding more often.

Personally heat management is the biggest thing for brakes for me. As Vish has said, brake fluid is a massive factor and a good DOT4 is all you need. I run Motul RBF660 and have never had an issue on boiling brake fluid with loads of track days. On the topic of heat management, I also use the Honed brake ducts - theyre cheap and cheerful and allows you to run a less aggressive pad for the road, whilst maintaining track performance.

Regarding the Porsche calipers, I looked into doing that when I was doing my upgrade. My issue with it was by the time I'd bought the calipers (and rebuilt them), the mounting kit from Honed, good discs and good pads, it was the same price as a Spoon setup. Being a Honda kid the Spoon setup won for me. The Spoon calipers use OEM Honda pad sizes so again, you have loads of options for pads and discs.

I personally dont think the 262 rear upgrade is worth the hassle, as you have to start looking at redrilling discs etc etc.

In terms of what I've tried and the difference it made....

- Daily. OEM 262/drum, bluprint pads/discs/shoes (I was 17!).
- Daily. OEM 282/drum, 1"MC, Ferodo DS2500. Brake pedal feel much improved, better at managing heat, increased stopping power.
- Summer car with occasional track use. OEM 282/242, 4040 prop valve, 1"MC, Ferodo DS2500, MTEC discs. Better heat management for the rear axle, no change in pedal feel. Kept warping discs after a track day.
- Summer car with more track use (3-4 a year). OEM 282/242, 4040 prop valve, 1"MC, Ferodo DS2500, Godspeed discs, Honed brake ducts. Really liked this setup, great all rounder that was allowing me to do 20min track sessions with no problem. Could lock the front axle under heavy braking in the dry so had the braking power.
- Summer car with even more track use (4-6 a year). Spoon 282/242, 4040 prop valve, 1"MC, Ferodo DS2500, Godspeed discs, Honed brake ducts, MC stopper. This is my current setup - wouldn't change it. I've hot lapped the car on this and i've overheated myself before the brakes (Cadwell Park, 30 minute session chasing/swapping with my brother in his E46 M3, 29deg ambient).

Sorry i've started rambling.... but key points are:
- Manage the heat.
- No point having more braking power than whats needed to lock the wheels.
- Cant go overkill with a good DOT4.

Long story short, let me know what your problems and useage is and i'll try to help guide!
Click to expand...
To echo off what Rippu has put:

On my EK9 I ended up keeping factory rear calipers, but on the front I changed up to KA9 Legend twin piston calipers. These fit straight onto the EK9/DC2 23T Caliper carriers. and still standard 282 discs of course. Found it gave the brakes a lot better modulation under heavier braking.
I run Dixcel Type Z pads all round, as well as Dixcel SD Rotors.
Factory EK9 ABS system still fitted too and barely ever comes on ( See Kozy's write up on here about the difference in ABS systems quite interesting to read)
Last upgrade was cable tying some 997 911 GT3RS brake ducts to the lower arm (similar to the Honed brake guide kit) was £7 per side for genuine porsche items and really helped keep temps down on track in a 'safer' zone for longer compared to without, especially as clearance is at a premium on standard EK9 wheels so expelling heat out of there is tricky.

With some calculations you could probably work out how to mount the 28T carriers from the legend and run the legend 28mm discs if you wanted some more thermal mass in the disc.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top