Should i have been faster with Mfactory straight cut?

[Stephank]

Tonight i did a check up of my car .. 'rolling start vs another EK9 RS Version.
Both floored until 4th gear and i was about 1car behind in his tail lights.

My specs:
5 zigen 4-2-1, Greddy N1 Exhaust system, Fujita F5 Cai, Exedy Stage1 Organic Clutch, ACT Prolite Flywheel 4,0kg, Stock LSD, Synchrotech gearbox rebuild kit, oem 15" wheels with Pirelli P1's, Oberon 5w50 oil with Greddy Iridium PRO Sparks, Full interior a/c etc, Drive Shaft Shop Stage 2 axles and ofcourse MF Gearset 1st 73km ratio 3.070 Semihelical, 2nd 101km ratio 2.105(oem 2nd gear) ,3rd 123km ratio 1.704, 4th 156km ratio 1.355 ,5th 190km ratio 1.118 (3-4-5 Straight cut).

R/S Specs:
5 Zigen 4-2-1, Greddy N1 Exhaust system, CAI, Stripped Back interior , Advan RG's 15" with Toyo R1R, Mugen LSD, 1st 2nd oem gears, 3-4-5 ATS Close rations max speed 170-180km only.

Note: My run was the 1st time i hit vtec , as i covered a few KM crusing downtown in traffic before - normal driving. The R.S did a few engagements in vtec before our run.

I noticed in 3rd and 4th gear our gap was staying the same , he wasn't pulling away.
So whats leaving me behind ? The Longer 1st gear in rolling and later enagement in my vtec ? My additional weight too ?

 

[MFactory]

Ratio wise, there is not too much difference, hence why your gap in 3rd/4th stayed the same.

Modification wise, you are both similar. So it basically comes down to vehicle weight and driver skill. He has the weight advantage, don't know about the driver skill though.

 

[_JT]

Also has to do with skill, how fast do you shift. Weight of course makes a difference. But don't worry about it. Do you mod your car to have fun in it or to show others that you're faster, in which case you are imho enlarging your e-p3nis?

 

[Stephank]

Hahah i do normal shiftings taking of my foot from gas everytime i shift
Well i own the type r because of what it is definetely !
Just want it to be tough as me but never mind , i'm slower ?!?!?

 

[_JT]

Skills show in the corner, not on the straight Can imagine you might have expected otherwise, but I wouldn't worry about it too much

 

[Kozy]

The major players are your weight and power, assuming both have healthy engines then the power will be the same so that leaves only the weight as a factor in why you lost. It's not your gearing either, he would probably have beaten you with a standard gearbox.

 

[Stephank]

The major players are your weight and power, assuming both have healthy engines then the power will be the same so that leaves only the weight as a factor in why you lost. It's not your gearing either, he would probably have beaten you with a standard gearbox.

Yeah thats what i though too cause an RS EK9 with no abs , airbags , electric motors and stipped full back interior is much lighter.

So what the next low cost mod to that slow b16b motor to run a bit faster?
ECU and remapping ?

 

[_JT]

Sports cat + remap would be a very good next step. Imho I wouldn't invest much more in the engine. You could also consider swapping for a B18C. Thing with B16B and B18C is that Honda has already gotten so much out of them that it will be expensive to make big step in power. This week I read about a guy who had spent 7000pounds on a high comp B18C build and got t 241bhp...everyone his own, but imho madness. Imho the way forward would be: B16b -> B18C -> B18C with bolt-ons + remap -> turbo / K20 swap. I think these steps get you the most bang for the buck in terms of powerband, torque and (therefor) power.

 

[Kozy]

You're never going to gain much in mid range torque with the 1600, aim for more revs and high end power instead. An extra 5lbft / 10bhp in the powerband should make up for around 60kg in weight. Adding another 500rpm onto the useable power band should make up for an additional 30kg on top of that.

Of course you could always strip your car out, that's free.

 

[Stephank]

Sports cat + remap would be a very good next step. Imho I wouldn't invest much more in the engine. You could also consider swapping for a B18C. Thing with B16B and B18C is that Honda has already gotten so much out of them that it will be expensive to make big step in power. This week I read about a guy who had spent 7000pounds on a high comp B18C build and got t 241bhp...everyone his own, but imho madness. Imho the way forward would be: B16b -> B18C -> B18C with bolt-ons + remap -> turbo / K20 swap. I think these steps get you the most bang for the buck in terms of powerband, torque and (therefor) power.

You're right buddy !

 

[Stephank]

You're never going to gain much in mid range torque with the 1600, aim for more revs and high end power instead. An extra 5lbft / 10bhp in the powerband should make up for around 60kg in weight. Adding another 500rpm onto the useable power band should make up for an additional 30kg on top of that.

Of course you could always strip your car out, that's free.

Let me see how my pocket will be doing this year in terms of gain !

To be honest with you all , i thought upgrading to straight cut gears ould increase the Hp on the wheels , therefore other stock ek9's would be "easy pray" in a street race (i dont get involved much just have fun) , but i guess thats on papers only ?
Nevertheless thanks so much guys !

 

[Stephank]

btw both cars are running De-cat(ed). thats for sure here hah

 

[_JT]

The other EK9 you raced is far from stock mate I'm sure you will easily take out a stock EK9.

Oh by the way, could you please try not to post 3 posts in a row? To help you:
1. If you click the edit button you can edit an existing post
2. If you want to quote multiple people, you click "multi" in the posts you want to quote. Then you click "reply" underneath the page, that will get you all the quotes in 1 posts.

Thanks!

 

[Kozy]

IMO gears don't really tend help that much in straight line acceleration, especially on a fairly stock engine. The higher wheel torque is offset by the fact you hold each gear for less time and change up sooner.

As you know, power = force x time. If you increase the force by 20% with shorter gearing, and hold it 20% less time as a result, the power is the same.

They feel faster because you rip through the gears so quickly, but if you are expecting a big gain over a quarter/half mile on a standard car you'll be disappointed.

 

[MFactory]

IMO gears don't really tend help that much in straight line acceleration, especially on a fairly stock engine. The higher wheel torque is offset by the fact you hold each gear for less time and change up sooner.

As you know, power = force x time. If you increase the force by 20% with shorter gearing, and hold it 20% less time as a result, the power is the same.

They feel faster because you rip through the gears so quickly, but if you are expecting a big gain over a quarter/half mile on a standard car you'll be disappointed.

True and False

With the way you worded it, it means the longer the gearing, the faster the car will be. We all know that is false (unless you are aiming for faster = top speed)

Generally speaking:

- Street Car (i.e mainly in-town driving), the shorter the gears, the faster the car will be
- 1/4 Mile, it all depends on your setup. If you cross the line in 3rd, you are slower. If you cross the line in 5th, you are slower. Always aim to cross at the top of 4th
- Freeway, the longer geared car will ultimately take over the shorter geared car

Of course, this is putting all things equal (setup, driver etc) which, in the real world, would never happen.

 

[_JT]

- Street Car (i.e mainly in-town driving), the shorter the gears, the faster the car will be

There is a point where gears get so short that you will lose more time with shifting than you are gaining in terms of g-forces. 0.2g acceleration with shifting 3 times will be faster than 0.3g acceleration and shifting 6 times (very arbitrary but just to make my point).

 

[Stephank]

The other EK9 you raced is far from stock mate I'm sure you will easily take out a stock EK9.

Oh by the way, could you please try not to post 3 posts in a row? To help you:
1. If you click the edit button you can edit an existing post
2. If you want to quote multiple people, you click "multi" in the posts you want to quote. Then you click "reply" underneath the page, that will get you all the quotes in 1 posts.

Thanks!

No problem and thank u too !

True and False

With the way you worded it, it means the longer the gearing, the faster the car will be. We all know that is false (unless you are aiming for faster = top speed)

Generally speaking:

- Street Car (i.e mainly in-town driving), the shorter the gears, the faster the car will be
- 1/4 Mile, it all depends on your setup. If you cross the line in 3rd, you are slower. If you cross the line in 5th, you are slower. Always aim to cross at the top of 4th
- Freeway, the longer geared car will ultimately take over the shorter geared car

Of course, this is putting all things equal (setup, driver etc) which, in the real world, would never happen.

Gotcha ! still a lot to learn. Thanks so much for all the support Mf !

 

[Stephank]

and so the straight cut gears won't reduce the loss of hp down to the wheels.
Just for faster shiftings?

 

[Topher-EK9]

You're never going to gain much in mid range torque with the 1600, aim for more revs and high end power instead. An extra 5lbft / 10bhp in the powerband should make up for around 60kg in weight. Adding another 500rpm onto the useable power band should make up for an additional 30kg on top of that.

Of course you could always strip your car out, that's free.

Nice piece of info there mate.. very interesting.

 

[Kozy]

True and False

With the way you worded it, it means the longer the gearing, the faster the car will be. We all know that is false (unless you are aiming for faster = top speed)

Faster top speed maybe, if it's gearing limited, but not necessarily faster acclerating.

Generally speaking:

- Street Car (i.e mainly in-town driving), the shorter the gears, the faster the car will be
- 1/4 Mile, it all depends on your setup. If you cross the line in 3rd, you are slower. If you cross the line in 5th, you are slower. Always aim to cross at the top of 4th
- Freeway, the longer geared car will ultimately take over the shorter geared car

This is a bit ambiguous, what do you mean by town driving? I would understand this to mean accelerating from perhaps not the optimum gear and not fully using the full range etc then yes, a shorter geared car is probably going to be a little quicker.

If you mean full bore acceleration then it's a different matter. Gearing takes a back seat to the power to weight ratio the power is largely independant of the gearing (in the simplified case of constant torque anyway).

In reality though a longer geared car will accelerate slower, and shortening the gears will make it quicker, however gearing is very much at the mercy of the law of diminishing returns, there's only so short you can go before it makes no difference or even starts slowing the car down. The stock gearing is actually pretty good in this regard, being close to this limit whilst still maintaining good gas mileage, cruising RPM etc.

You can make some small gains with close gearing sure, but don't expect to be claiming a bootful of scalps from tuned cars if your PTW is stock.