Cold air... is it important for your N/A motor?

[jugbugz]

Hey Blinx,

I've just bought the HONDA Bulider's Handbook written by Joe Pettite. It's got some serious depth on HONDA motors. Covers everything there is including FI.

I was reading and came to a certain Headline and thought I'd share it with everyone.

COOL INTAKE AIR is CRITICAL for NATURALLY ASPIRATED POWER

I'll just type out a part of what's under the headline because it aint long. It talks about RAM air as well.

You can actually make things worse with ram air. Ram air is a problem because it only works at a very specific mph. If you get the pressure in the scoop higher than the engine wants to take, a high-pressure area forms at the opening of the scoop and the air goes up and over it rather than going into the scoop. You have to calculate the air volume demand of the engine. On some of the F1 cars, openings at the bottom of the air box hold only a certain pressure. Then they bypass the rest of the air to bypass the rest of the air to avoid high pressure area at the opening of the scoop. A high pressure opening diverts airflow, and the engine doesn't flow as much as it normally would. Still, anything that gives you cold air, gives you power.

COOL AIR INTAKES

Cool air intakes improve the density of the intake charge becasue for every 11 degrees F(6 degrees C) that you lower the intake air temperature, your rewarded with approximately a 1-percent horsepower increase. Therefore, if your underhood temperatures are in the 165 degrees F(73 degrees C) range and it's 80 degrees F(26 degrees C), you'll get a 7.7 percent increase by ducting outside cool air to the intake. If your running 100 horsepower, that turns into a cool 107.7 horsepower. Free. Cool. Add to that the reduction in pumping losses from a free flowing filter element and it's a potentially a win-win bolt-on.

An NSX gained an extra 7whp on cold air intake.

Theres about 150 full big pages on every single part of the HONDA engine and what promotes and what doesn't etc etc.

I just shortly read that underdrive pulleys wouldn't gain much as Honda didn't leave much power on the tables.

Ok and another part I've found...
Dense air has more oxygen per vloume and will produce higher combustion pressure, hence a more powerful stroke. There's some arguement whether the air in the engine bay is that much hotter and therefore less dense once your up to speed. Another benefit to free flowing air intakes is they reduce pumping losses(friction) in the systemto free up power that would otherwise go to pulling the air through a restriction.

That's the difference between a long piped cold air intake and short ram intake. Basically, Short ram is like a free flowing system and longer pipes means more travelling time and restriction.

Cold air is densed so it does have more oxygen pre volume...

Geez, this was exactly what I ws talking about on the other thread when everyone was skeptical of my opinion... I guess my science and physics knowledge paid off.

If anyone wants to know the name of the book, it's High-Performance HONDA Bulider's Handbook. Volume 1. On Ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/High-Performance-Honda-Builder-Handbook-Vol-1-Civic-CRX_W0QQitemZ150118193435QQihZ005QQcategoryZ45572QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Theres Volume 2 as well. I might get it after I finish this one.

 

[rvm]

Thanks a lot for sharing this information.

I totally agree, i felt a incredible difference with my cold air duct last week, i was able to keep up with a modded ITR!

nice info!

 

[Dino-Spumoni]

A local bookstore called Barnes and Noble had volume 1 of this book, but volume 2 has to be special ordered. Both books are chock full of information on honda building, but these books are sort of old and some of the info can get out of date.

 

[blinx9900]

i appreaciate the info your sharing but that is somehting we both agreed on and common knowledge to most automotive enthusiasts. i know we typed a lot of BS back and fourth but i never disagreed with "colder air is better" if you go back and read any of the posts youll see that i actually did agree with you a few times, this is the last time i will say it:

all i was saying is this: a short intake with open filter will still outperform a stock intake box, even though it is sucking in hotter air it is still sucking in MORE air so it makes up for is lack of density with more volume.

i never once argued with you that short was better than a cold air intake. so i dont know why your posting this, i really think you misunderstood me beucase this really is about the 10th time ive said this. do you understand what im trying to say here?

 

[SpoonCTR]

thanks for the info

 

[webartie]

it has been my experience in b seriies engines (not k ill explain later), that honda themselves put alot more effert than any tuner company to keep a decent balance of cold air, especially in the 'r' models. If you wish to modify the air box look at the type r models... a few different types were tested results:

on an itr 00

standard 196.6 bhp (all at flywheel)
short ram 190.00 bhp (hks mushroom filter)
long ram (filter was down in bumper (aem v2)) 197.00)

so short ram does not work!! more torque lower down as in 2-5 k rpm but thats it, the v2 was good but not worth the 300 euro price tag.... what can i say honda a simply better tuners than us... on the r models so if an upgrade was required on say an sir then i would suggest getting type r parts.. a quoate below


Over 60 engine-related parts were changed or entirely re-designed for the Type R. We asked Mr. Suga for any other advice on tuning the Type R any further. He replied, "I would prefer that people don't try to further tune the Type R. No, actually, they shouldn't try. Each upgraded part works in perfect harmony, and fiddling with the factory setting will only lead to a decrease in performance." It's probably safe to say that the Type R is a rare, "fully tuned" and "stock" automobile.

the k series is a restricted engine... capable of alot more, an ep3 type r from an aem induction kit went from 198 bhp to 209... well worth it...

 

[blinx9900]

a few different types were tested results:

on an itr 00

standard 196.6 bhp (all at flywheel)
short ram 190.00 bhp (hks mushroom filter)
long ram (filter was down in bumper (aem v2)) 197.00)

i dont believe this at all, i want to see dyno graphs. there is no way a stock paper element panel filter can out flow a k&n/aem/injen/apexi cone filter. ive seen apexi filter dyno'd on a stock intake arm and it netted 5.9whp this was on an em1 but still i cant believe the stock air box is that good. can anyone shoe pics of the stock ek9 air box comparing it to a ek4/em1 air box?

 

[rvm]

hehehehehe, advance of my new cold air system

 

[webartie]

technially its an integra type r intake box with uprated filter, the vti/civic type r is a little more restrictive... but its ture the short ram seriously lose power... noticeably.

all tunning companys of certain standards ie spoon mugen use oem type designs with minor modification..... short ram is def in my opinion only for noise, the aem v2 and k and n typhoon are good but dont expect miricales...

ther is a difference though, if u use a filter and have a proper cold air feed then this might result in a gain, usually the shorter the pipe to the engine more bottom end power and the longer the pipe the more horsepower, hence aem v2 and the like do well (better tahn results above ) when used with a decent cold air feed,ie RVM above, but then another problem occurs.... hydro lock esp if u live in ireland or england where rain is our friend

again honda know more than we do,

 

[blinx9900]

wow this is a big part of the reason i am just turbocharging my car, a lot of all motor people just get so obsessed with such a simple mod like an intake, there are so many opinions/misinformation all for 4-6whp... and the best part is that a dyno can never really measure what an intake does becuase it simply just cant simulate the real driving experience which has A LOT more wind/air flow over and under the car.

 

[webartie]

true said... thats why i reason leave what mr honda did!!! he knows best... again speaking for the r models.....

we'll agree on this one mr BLINX9900... for the difference gained its not worth arguing over ha ha

 

[blinx9900]

true said... thats why i reason leave what mr honda did!!! he knows best... again speaking for the r models.....

we'll agree on this one mr BLINX9900... for the difference gained its not worth arguing over ha ha

the r is indeed very well balanced, i now wish i had kept my r flywheel instead of swapping out for a lighter unit its going back in next clutch job.

 

[webartie]

is it that bad... in what way?

 

[blinx9900]

is it that bad... in what way?

well its just that i also have a n1 pulley so my revs drop really fast so now i have to shift really fast to avoid falling out of vtec. and i HATE shifting fast, im lazy

 

[jugbugz]

i appreaciate the info your sharing but that is somehting we both agreed on and common knowledge to most automotive enthusiasts. i know we typed a lot of BS back and fourth but i never disagreed with "colder air is better" if you go back and read any of the posts youll see that i actually did agree with you a few times, this is the last time i will say it:

all i was saying is this: a short intake with open filter will still outperform a stock intake box, even though it is sucking in hotter air it is still sucking in MORE air so it makes up for is lack of density with more volume.

i never once argued with you that short was better than a cold air intake. so i dont know why your posting this, i really think you misunderstood me beucase this really is about the 10th time ive said this. do you understand what im trying to say here?

No offence intended... I'm just sharing some info I've found that related to our bs arguement...

 

[jugbugz]

-Geez, I've just ordered a 5.1 kg flywheel.. which one you using RMV? I've been told this 5.1 kg one is way more better than SPOON AND TODA on the street.. I hope I haven't wasted my $$$.

Hey webartie, nice info of the tests. what you said proves the theory about gaining power at lower rpm but not at high rpms with sucking bonnet air temperatures. I still think unless there is cold air directed to the short ram, it won't benefit except the lower rpms. anyway, we don't want to continue this arguement about this anymore... lets just try it out ourselves.

RVM, thats a cool mod to the bumper! will catch eyes for sure! I'm thinking to reposition my hose to avoid ram air.

 

[blinx9900]

-Geez, I've just ordered a 5.1 kg flywheel..

thats about 11.2lbs should be perfect

 

[jugbugz]

I hope so... thats what the seller told me anyway, I trusted his experience and knowledge... Brand is ACT. I've never heard of it but it's the 5.1kg figure thats good.

Hey blinx, what you said about more air on short ram. I can agree on this if the car is Force Fed, but on a naturally aspirated engine, how can it breathe more then the cams etc would allow it? Isn't it just like the human lungs? Hot air = less oxygen and cold air = more oxygen... we are breathing a certain volume of air...

 

[vtecroadhog]

I hope so... thats what the seller told me anyway, I trusted his experience and knowledge... Brand is ACT. I've never heard of it but it's the 5.1kg figure thats good.

friend of mine has this same flywheel... drives ek4 daily city area. He is in luv with the differ frm stock

 

[jugbugz]

oh, I just weighed the flywheel the other day and it's actually 5.7kgs from my digital scale. My mechanic has just changed it during the front knuckle change and he said it was significantly lighter than stock. So this should be promising!!!