stiffer spring rates?
- Thread starter EKandrew
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MeisterR
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The standard Type-R suspension are pretty hardcore compromise.
They are good suspension, the problem I find with most OEM suspension is that they are under springs and over damped.
The over damped reason is because they have to make a non-adjustable suspension to perform, so naturally it have to be quite stiff to provide steering response and control body roll.
The under springs reason is because they are using a stiff damper, it is the only option they have to give any compliancy in the suspension...
So they under up with a suspension that roll (as that is controlled by springs rate) and also uncomfortable (due to the stiff damper valving).
Understandable why it was done that way, but on the other hand not really something that make a car a good road car or a good track car... it is kind of stuck in between.
Honda might be slightly better because they are known to actually run very high wheel frequency standard.
As our engineers do a lot of testing at the Milbrooks Proving Ground, he have first hand knowledge of many OEM engineers testing there.
Fun Fact: Honda Civic Type-R (Can't confirm if it was the EP3 or the FN2) run the HIGHEST wheel frequency of any production car (1.8hz).
In contracts, Porsche and Ferrari normally end up around the 1.6hz area.
Either way, it is fun take apart a suspension and critically look at it.
But even knowledgeable engineer have different way of achieving the same goals, each method will do the job but done differently.
That is why suspension is such a subjective item as there really isn't a right or wrong answer, it depends on who is doing it and what they want from the suspensions.
Jerrick
They are good suspension, the problem I find with most OEM suspension is that they are under springs and over damped.
The over damped reason is because they have to make a non-adjustable suspension to perform, so naturally it have to be quite stiff to provide steering response and control body roll.
The under springs reason is because they are using a stiff damper, it is the only option they have to give any compliancy in the suspension...
So they under up with a suspension that roll (as that is controlled by springs rate) and also uncomfortable (due to the stiff damper valving).
Understandable why it was done that way, but on the other hand not really something that make a car a good road car or a good track car... it is kind of stuck in between.
Honda might be slightly better because they are known to actually run very high wheel frequency standard.
As our engineers do a lot of testing at the Milbrooks Proving Ground, he have first hand knowledge of many OEM engineers testing there.
Fun Fact: Honda Civic Type-R (Can't confirm if it was the EP3 or the FN2) run the HIGHEST wheel frequency of any production car (1.8hz).
In contracts, Porsche and Ferrari normally end up around the 1.6hz area.
Either way, it is fun take apart a suspension and critically look at it.
But even knowledgeable engineer have different way of achieving the same goals, each method will do the job but done differently.
That is why suspension is such a subjective item as there really isn't a right or wrong answer, it depends on who is doing it and what they want from the suspensions.
Jerrick
EKandrew
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- Aug 11, 2012
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- 212
When it is topics like this, got your name written all over it huh?
Personally, for a road car I aim to go under 2hz.
As you are limited by the road tyres compound and road surfaces quality...
Going over 2hz can be dangerous on bumpy wet road surfaces and road tyres.
For a race car, around 2.5hz - 3hz...
We have gone close to 4hz on some race car but these are really high level pro drivers car.
Also, for all you mathematic nerd (myself included).
To convert lb/in to kg/mm and back, it is factor of 0.0179
10.0 kg/mm / 0.0179 = 558 lb/in
450 lb/in * 0.0179 = 8.0 kg/mm
Think that might be useful for some of you...
Anyways, kind of gone off topic.
So here is a conclusion: Can you throw a heavier springs on a coilovers and hope it just work? No.
There are a lot of factors to consider... and if you are not sure then it is best to leave it alone or get someone else to work out the numbers for you.
Jerrick
i think the coilovers this fella is running are meister r's. Philip burdock is his name.
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- Nov 1, 2008
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The reason I like it is that it dan easily be run on track bút will also perform on bad roads in corners, you still keep the grip. Better than my previous 6k coilovers which I felt were too hard to keep the tire on the ground in bad conditions in corners. And I don even find it thát harsh to be honest. So for me itś a very good compromise and I personally doubt wether higher rates will keep grip as good as stock on bad roads.
MeisterR
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- Feb 3, 2009
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- 321
Like I said, it is a personal preference.
The problem with very expensive suspension is alot of time they aren't design for road... and thats why you get that problem with keeping the tyres on the ground.
It is a combination of high springs rate and stiff damper valving (a bit more controlled by damper if you ask me).
They are design to push the tyres down onto the ground to generate grip, not absorb vibration you find on roads.
The idea of a road suspensions is a compromise.
If your 6K suspension isn't keeping the wheels on the ground, then it was design for on wrong end of the spectrum for you.
Could a higher springs rate work well and provide better performance?
Possibility, cannot really tell without putting the damper on a dyno and work out some numbers.
But Honda historically is pretty good at designing good OEM suspensions.
Could a coilovers with higher springs rate provide better performance and the same compliant ride?
I think so, because we are able to use very precise engineering to make some amazing one off dampers, where OEM have to stick with mass production method and therefore cannot employ the same level of accuracy and engineering as one off custom suspension.
Jerrick