Nicegoingdav
2000 EK9 Rx
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2009
- Messages
- 149
I thought it may be nice to have something similar to the EK9 buying guide that everyone can contribute to...
I've had these problems, so thought i'd try to stop others from having them
.
These points are what I'd like to include. Please correct in the likely event I am mistaken in something. :blinx
Contributions and feedback welcome
Type of nut that wheels may need:
Concerns: Some Jap-style rims use the smaller bolt holes of their 5-stud pattern to fit the studs on an EK9. This requires the use of 'tuner' style nuts which are still a 12 X 1.5 size but are thinner, using internal drive and a socket adapter. These can be hard to remove if overtorqued/cracked and are often made from 'duraluminum' (aluminium). These are not allowed in some MSA regulated track events, although it does make drilling them out easier.
Alloy tuner wheel nuts work fine on the road and most tracks if treated correctly. Steel tuner nuts can also be found e.g. from suppliers to wheel traders/motorsport.
Air guns:
Despite advice from some nut manufacturers, pneumatic wrenches are often used by garages when working with aftermarket rims. This can often result in overtightening and the loss of threading on nuts. If paying for an expensive set of wheels and nuts it is well worth the extra care provided by tightening and loosening by hand. If over-torquing is combined with a nut made from a relatively low grade alloy the nut may fracture, and may end up having to be drilled out.
Be sure to agree with the garage that the wheels will be torqued correctly. Copper grease can also be used to ensure smooth contact between nuts, studs wheels and hubs.
Air guns on Hondas?
Used by pit crews the world over to great effect, pneumatic wrenches or impact have many useful and necessary applications in a Honda garage. However in my opinion the impact wrenches found in the average tyre shop are likely to be too powerful and too inaccurate to achieve 110Nm per nut, especially aftermarket nuts. Even truck racing teams torque-up and loosen wheel nuts by hand.
Tyres:
Pretty obvious but thought I'd mention anyway: Often it is cheaper to order wheels from a dealer and the tyres from a big supplier e.g. Camskill; However this saving my be undone if you don't have easy and cheap access to a tire machine. Again, my local Honda offers a price match service and can get most tyres.
Wheel nut torque:
Honda advises tightening wheel nuts to 110Nm, equal to 80 lb ft.
Under-tighten and there wont be enough friction - or stopping force - between the thread of the nut and the stud, and the nut may rattle loose.
Over-tightening can put stress on components e.g. stripping the thread of a lug nut or stud, stretching or breaking a stud or bolt and possibly causing the wheel, brake rotor and/or brake drum to distort (tirerack.com 2009).
Nuts, wheels and studs are designed to have a small, but significant, amount of elasticity -flex- when under a high load (e.g. 90mph bend with the diff doing it thing).gif ":)) :))")
Over-tightening may result in this force being put on components not designed to take it and may lead to the damaging of some components - the most likely effect on an EK is the threading or fracturing of the wheel nut, or the dislodging of the heat-pressed stud in the hub.
Most garages suggest checking wheel nut torques after about 30 miles of driving. Check regularly before any hard driving e.g. on a track. Make sure you check, tighten when the nuts are cool, as after heavy braking the nuts will heat up and their properties will change. This is ok but the 110Nm is a cold-setting.
*Obviously if any wheel wobble starts pull over immediately. Let the wheels cool down if necessary and check their tightness.
More info on checking wheel nut tightness etc. is at boltscience.com.
After changing/refitting wheels
Between fitting, driving and stopping the wheels will go from cold to hot to cold again, which may loosen bolts identified by clicking/knocking from a wheel as it rotates or wheel wobble. Even if there is no sign, let the brakes, wheels and bolts cool down then check the torque of the bolts.
Over-tightened a nut?
If a nut may be over-tightened I use this technique:
Loosening each nut very slowly and gently by hand, ensuring the socket/key/adapter is held firmly and fully on the nut, turning each one anticlockwise by the smallest fraction in the sequence shown on tirerack.com. In theory, as with tightening up, this will minimise the change in forces put on other nuts when one nut is loosened - loosening one nut by a lot may make the others feel tighter.
Torque Wrenches:
Torque wrenches allow the user to check the tightness of a nut and bolt by measuring the torque applied to the nut, allowing it to be matched to the manufacturers specifications. This permits proper tension and loading of all parts. A torque wrench uses torque as a proxy for measuring bolt tension. There is some inaccuracy from inconsistent or uncalibrated friction between the nut and the hole in the wheel. Measuring bolt tension (bolt stretch) is more accurate, but often torque is the only practical means of measurement.
The most common torque wrenches used on wheel nuts are the 'click type', which has a calibrated clutch mechanism which slips when the torque pre-set by the user is reached, preventing additional tightening. Click type torque wrenches offer a good level of precision and a positive action at the set point.
Calibration:
The clutch-style mechanism, usually a ball detent and a spring, pre-loaded by an adjustable screw thread, comes calibrated, but can be re-calibrated after extensive use.
Danny D notes it is important to loosen the torque back to its zero or lowest setting after each use to preserve the accuracy of the spring mechanism.
Inaccuracies:
Torque wrenches do have an error margin (see torque wrench error margins). But the nuts and studs etc. on cars will effective around the approximation of 110Nm / 80 lb ft - being out by a few units is unlikely to cause any problems.
Lubricating wheel nuts:
Some sites condemn lubricating wheel nuts completely (tirerack.com), whereas others explicitly state that nuts should be lubricated every time they are re-tightened (Ultralite.com).
Copper grease:
Honda put copper grease on my studs after fitting the new one, and copper grease manufacturers state that one of its uses is on wheel nuts and bolts.
There seem to be mixed opinions about whether it is beneficial to lubricate wheel nuts or not:
-If the car has OEM nuts and wheels and doesn't state anywhere in the manual that copper grease should be used then it should be fine to 'dry' tighten the nuts and bolts.
- Aftermarket nuts such as Ultralites state that copper grease must be applied every time the nut is put back on a wheel. Aftermarket wheels that use tuner nuts probably require copper grease to reduce any unwanted friction between the nut and the hole in the wheel, and possibly to reduce the risk of seizing between the metal of the Honda stud and the aftermarket nut.
- Other lubricants that don't state they can be used on wheel nuts should not be used. Always take care not to get any sort of oil on the brakes.
Summary:
* Ensure wheel nuts are correctly torqued.
* Consider what nuts a wheel will need when buying.
* Check nut tightness about 30 miles after fitting new nuts/wheels, and maybe after 100 miles, or when the wheels will have gone through a few heat cycles.
*If you're using unconventional parts in a tight hole, think about lubricant.
References:
Tirerack.com 2009: Wheel nut torquing overview: http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=107
Ultralite wheel nuts http://www.ultralitewheels.com/accessories.htm
Torque setting by car make: http://www.dba.com.au/catalogue/pdf/online_pdf/wheel_torque.pdf
Torque wrench error margins: http://home.jtan.com/~joe/KIAT/kiat_3.htm
Info on wheel stud failures and guidelines for checking tightness: (for trucks but still worth a read): http://www.boltscience.com/pages/failure4.htm
*'For want of a nail the shoe is lost,
For want of a shoe the horse is lost,
For want of a horse the rider is lost,
For want of a rider the battle is lost,
For want of a battle the kingdom is lost,
And all for the loss of a horseshoe nail.'
George Herbert
Don't buy cheap wheel components!
I've had these problems, so thought i'd try to stop others from having them
. These points are what I'd like to include. Please correct in the likely event I am mistaken in something. :blinx
Contributions and feedback welcome
Type of nut that wheels may need:
Concerns: Some Jap-style rims use the smaller bolt holes of their 5-stud pattern to fit the studs on an EK9. This requires the use of 'tuner' style nuts which are still a 12 X 1.5 size but are thinner, using internal drive and a socket adapter. These can be hard to remove if overtorqued/cracked and are often made from 'duraluminum' (aluminium). These are not allowed in some MSA regulated track events, although it does make drilling them out easier.
Alloy tuner wheel nuts work fine on the road and most tracks if treated correctly. Steel tuner nuts can also be found e.g. from suppliers to wheel traders/motorsport.
Air guns:
Despite advice from some nut manufacturers, pneumatic wrenches are often used by garages when working with aftermarket rims. This can often result in overtightening and the loss of threading on nuts. If paying for an expensive set of wheels and nuts it is well worth the extra care provided by tightening and loosening by hand. If over-torquing is combined with a nut made from a relatively low grade alloy the nut may fracture, and may end up having to be drilled out.
Be sure to agree with the garage that the wheels will be torqued correctly. Copper grease can also be used to ensure smooth contact between nuts, studs wheels and hubs.
Air guns on Hondas?
Used by pit crews the world over to great effect, pneumatic wrenches or impact have many useful and necessary applications in a Honda garage. However in my opinion the impact wrenches found in the average tyre shop are likely to be too powerful and too inaccurate to achieve 110Nm per nut, especially aftermarket nuts. Even truck racing teams torque-up and loosen wheel nuts by hand.
Tyres:
Pretty obvious but thought I'd mention anyway: Often it is cheaper to order wheels from a dealer and the tyres from a big supplier e.g. Camskill; However this saving my be undone if you don't have easy and cheap access to a tire machine. Again, my local Honda offers a price match service and can get most tyres.
Wheel nut torque:
Honda advises tightening wheel nuts to 110Nm, equal to 80 lb ft.
Under-tighten and there wont be enough friction - or stopping force - between the thread of the nut and the stud, and the nut may rattle loose.
Over-tightening can put stress on components e.g. stripping the thread of a lug nut or stud, stretching or breaking a stud or bolt and possibly causing the wheel, brake rotor and/or brake drum to distort (tirerack.com 2009).
Nuts, wheels and studs are designed to have a small, but significant, amount of elasticity -flex- when under a high load (e.g. 90mph bend with the diff doing it thing
Over-tightening may result in this force being put on components not designed to take it and may lead to the damaging of some components - the most likely effect on an EK is the threading or fracturing of the wheel nut, or the dislodging of the heat-pressed stud in the hub.Most garages suggest checking wheel nut torques after about 30 miles of driving. Check regularly before any hard driving e.g. on a track. Make sure you check, tighten when the nuts are cool, as after heavy braking the nuts will heat up and their properties will change. This is ok but the 110Nm is a cold-setting.
*Obviously if any wheel wobble starts pull over immediately. Let the wheels cool down if necessary and check their tightness.
More info on checking wheel nut tightness etc. is at boltscience.com.
After changing/refitting wheels
Between fitting, driving and stopping the wheels will go from cold to hot to cold again, which may loosen bolts identified by clicking/knocking from a wheel as it rotates or wheel wobble. Even if there is no sign, let the brakes, wheels and bolts cool down then check the torque of the bolts.
Over-tightened a nut?
If a nut may be over-tightened I use this technique:
Loosening each nut very slowly and gently by hand, ensuring the socket/key/adapter is held firmly and fully on the nut, turning each one anticlockwise by the smallest fraction in the sequence shown on tirerack.com. In theory, as with tightening up, this will minimise the change in forces put on other nuts when one nut is loosened - loosening one nut by a lot may make the others feel tighter.
Torque Wrenches:
Torque wrenches allow the user to check the tightness of a nut and bolt by measuring the torque applied to the nut, allowing it to be matched to the manufacturers specifications. This permits proper tension and loading of all parts. A torque wrench uses torque as a proxy for measuring bolt tension. There is some inaccuracy from inconsistent or uncalibrated friction between the nut and the hole in the wheel. Measuring bolt tension (bolt stretch) is more accurate, but often torque is the only practical means of measurement.
The most common torque wrenches used on wheel nuts are the 'click type', which has a calibrated clutch mechanism which slips when the torque pre-set by the user is reached, preventing additional tightening. Click type torque wrenches offer a good level of precision and a positive action at the set point.
Calibration:
The clutch-style mechanism, usually a ball detent and a spring, pre-loaded by an adjustable screw thread, comes calibrated, but can be re-calibrated after extensive use.
Danny D notes it is important to loosen the torque back to its zero or lowest setting after each use to preserve the accuracy of the spring mechanism.
Inaccuracies:
Torque wrenches do have an error margin (see torque wrench error margins). But the nuts and studs etc. on cars will effective around the approximation of 110Nm / 80 lb ft - being out by a few units is unlikely to cause any problems.
Lubricating wheel nuts:
Some sites condemn lubricating wheel nuts completely (tirerack.com), whereas others explicitly state that nuts should be lubricated every time they are re-tightened (Ultralite.com).
Copper grease:
Honda put copper grease on my studs after fitting the new one, and copper grease manufacturers state that one of its uses is on wheel nuts and bolts.
There seem to be mixed opinions about whether it is beneficial to lubricate wheel nuts or not:
-If the car has OEM nuts and wheels and doesn't state anywhere in the manual that copper grease should be used then it should be fine to 'dry' tighten the nuts and bolts.
- Aftermarket nuts such as Ultralites state that copper grease must be applied every time the nut is put back on a wheel. Aftermarket wheels that use tuner nuts probably require copper grease to reduce any unwanted friction between the nut and the hole in the wheel, and possibly to reduce the risk of seizing between the metal of the Honda stud and the aftermarket nut.
- Other lubricants that don't state they can be used on wheel nuts should not be used. Always take care not to get any sort of oil on the brakes.
Summary:
* Ensure wheel nuts are correctly torqued.
* Consider what nuts a wheel will need when buying.
* Check nut tightness about 30 miles after fitting new nuts/wheels, and maybe after 100 miles, or when the wheels will have gone through a few heat cycles.
*If you're using unconventional parts in a tight hole, think about lubricant
.References:
Tirerack.com 2009: Wheel nut torquing overview: http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=107
Ultralite wheel nuts http://www.ultralitewheels.com/accessories.htm
Torque setting by car make: http://www.dba.com.au/catalogue/pdf/online_pdf/wheel_torque.pdf
Torque wrench error margins: http://home.jtan.com/~joe/KIAT/kiat_3.htm
Info on wheel stud failures and guidelines for checking tightness: (for trucks but still worth a read): http://www.boltscience.com/pages/failure4.htm
*'For want of a nail the shoe is lost,
For want of a shoe the horse is lost,
For want of a horse the rider is lost,
For want of a rider the battle is lost,
For want of a battle the kingdom is lost,
And all for the loss of a horseshoe nail.'
George Herbert
Don't buy cheap wheel components!
Last edited:
